PROTEST going on at Edwardsville City Hall just now...missed the news story but saw the chopper!
WHAT IS GOING ON???

I'll be anxious to find out.

firefighters go to kmbc for story

EDWARDSVILLE, Kan. -- Minutes after a firefighters union began a picket in protest of a possible layoff of a firefighter in Edwardsville, city and union leaders came to an agreement to avoid the layoff.

Firefighters union president Bob Wing and Edwardsville Mayor John McTaggart announced the agreement to the picketing firefighters at about 6:15 p.m. Monday.

Details still need to be worked out, but Wing expects to submit the proposal for a union vote in the next couple of days.

"It's good to have this behind us so we can work on issues ahead of us," said Mark Bishop, an Edwardsville city councilman who also serves on the city fire department.

At the center of the job dispute was Edwardsville's $125,000 budget shortfall, but in the end, all sides agreed that losing one firefighter from a 14-person department created unnecessary risk to public safety.

During council meetings this spring, city leaders have repeatedly said that layoffs are the least appealing scenario to shore up the budget shortfall.

Other options on the table include involuntary furloughs or unpaid leave for city employees, and cuts to nonessential city spending.

Look for updates on this story on KMBC.com and on KMBC 9 News at 6 p.m. and 10 p.m.

Thanks for posting the story Astro-I couldn't get a link

http://www.bonnersprings.com/news/2009/jun/09/edwardsville-protest-ends-preliminary-agreement/ click this link to BONNER SPRINGS CHIEFTAIN PAPER (about the protest) 15 minutes and 800 signatures WOW

http://www.kansascitykansan.com/news/business/x702343475/Anti-Cordish-group-organizing-on-Obama-network INTERESTING....ABOUT THE CASINO AND OBAMA NETWORK

That was interesting. It amazes me that this person can claim without a doubt that the DJ got kicked off the stage because of racism when I don't at all know that anyone knows that for a fact. I find it terribly hard to believe anyone would hire a black Hip Hop DJ and then give him the boot because of race. It makes a lot more sense to me that he probably refused to turn down the volume and was risking the sound system as claimed.

Ok, I'm gonna play devil's advocate. Keep in mind I do this sort of stuff for a living, so I'm used to criticizing and challenging status quo, even in areas that make most people uncomfortable.

This is why I could never be elected to city council because I would tick off to many powerful voting blocks. I hate waste, especially at my tax-paying expense.

I read the Chieftan article about how the firefighters union staged a protest and won concessions from the Edwardsville city council to save a firefighting job.

As I understood from the article, there are currently 15 firefighters, including Mr. Lane, the fire chief. Now, the people quoted in the article state that you need a minimum of 4 to safely "run a rig" and the three shifts are currently set up 5-5-4, presumably with Lane excluded. The extra heads are there to cover for vacation and other absenteeism.

Let's work this problem backwards. If you need 4 per shift, that's 12 people mimimum. Even in the worst union environment (I work there), absenteeism + vacation rarely exceeds 10%. So, 10% of 12 = 1.2.

Theoretically, according to the union's own figures, we should be running the department with 13.2 people. Instead of saving a job, I think the city should be trying to eliminate 2!

Now, the whole "run a rig" thing has me confused, because I'm not really sure what they're referring to. To the best of my knowledge, a rig has one steering wheel, one gas pedal, and one brake, and I think those are all controlled by one guy. I assume they mean it takes 4 to safely operate the truck while putting out a fire.

So, the next logical question became "how often do they actually put out a fire?"

The best data source I had is what's printed in the Chieftan under "Edwardsville Fire Department Calls" and I had to use my best judgement for which calls would actually require people to put out a fire.

Over 10 months of data that I could find, there were 14 calls that would require them to put out a fire. Extrapolate that out for a whole year, and it's about 17 "actual fire" calls averaged a year.

I don't know what a typical firefighter gets paid, but the paper reports that eliminating the one job would save the city $70k yearly. Financial figures are like fuzzy math. I know that, where I work, one union person typically makes slightly over $50k but actually costs the company closer to $100k when you factor in all the benefits like healthcare. So, I'll work under the assumption that the $70k figure includes benefits.

If every firefighter made $70k, the department is costing the city (15x70k) $1,050,000 in manpower alone. That doesn't include equipment costs.

So, on a "per fire" basis, the cost in manpower was $62k every time they had to "run the rig" and use the firetruck to actually put out a fire. Remember, I'm just talking manpower costs.

The majority of calls were EMS calls that didn't require the presence of a firetruck. The majority of the fire calls were grass fires and vehicle fires. Only a few were structural fires.

So, with that research in mind, these are my suggestions:

1. The city should work to reduce the number of heads in the department from 15 to 13. This would still fall within the union's request to meet the required number of heads to meet absenteeism and vacation and still be able to "run a rig," how rarely that may occur.

2. The city should then take a hard long look at the work being done by the fire department and question the worth of maintenance, equipment and staffing expenses for firetrucks that are rarely used for the purpose of putting out a fire. Stick the Jaws of Life on an ambulance, and you have a much leaner crew.

Let me give you a real life example. My sister-in-law was visiting and late one night she went into a diabetic low. We tried and tried to get her out of it without any success. I tried to carry her to the car to take her to the hospital, but she was a hefty gal and I couldn't move her. We ended up calling 911.

I stepped outside and waited for help to arrive while lilmama was on the phone. I live north of the tracks, but I could still hear the sirens kick on as the Edwardsville crew came to help. As luck would have it, a darn train came and held them up at the tracks.

At that point they must have dispatched out to that crew off of State avenue near the new Schlitterbahn, but the train cleared shortly afterward, and everybody, including the state avenue crew, showed up at the same time about 6 minutes later.

So, in a short amount of time, I had 3 trucks in front of my house and about 14 guys with 12 of them in fire gear. All I really needed was a paramedic. I was thankful they showed up as quickly as they did and got the job done and my sister-in-law was ok, but I couldn't help think about the enormous waste involved in supporting a very simple EMS call.

I don't have a solution, but I do think that what we have is a tad overkill.

Oh my TNT,

Here's what people will say to that. . ."I sure hope your home doesn't catch fire"

I surly don't know the answer to this dilema but I'm sure there are lots of minds out there that do. (Just don't ask the President! JMHO, too which I am as entitled as anyone else.)

The thing that bothers me about this is that tons of new businesses come into the area with a tax abatement. I understand the concept but if they were paying their fair share of taxes, the city would have enough to provide a fire department that is more than just adequate. Then there is the plan to refurbish city hall. Not saying it doesn't need it but is it needed more than a well staffed fire department ?

Well TnT what do you think Jeff Manning and your other union brother and sisters would think of your views on unions, The U.S. tax payers are now paying GM's salaries (yours) in wyco Fairfax plant and I for one I’m glad of that since my uncle works there he is also related to a fireman and police officer in Edwardsville KS, I bet there are plenty GM workers around the country that have been laid off and wish all they had to worry about this weekend is trying a new chicken wing recipe. We all should be thankful we have jobs, Health Insurance for are new born babies and family members and not wish anyone in today’s economy to be jobless. We need public safety personal to keep us safe and we don’t need to trade that for a new building remodel at this time. I signed the petition for no lay offs and I will sign a recall petition for any elected official that wants to lay off any of our Police and / or Firefighters.

did anyone find out what the hot air balloons were doing the other night?

It is my opinion that for the most part the UAW has brought much of this on themselves. They forced the companies into more and more, better retirement, better health coverage, 90% when layed off. Somebody has to pay for all that. When the cars were selling they had the leverage to to get what they wanted. Well cars quit selling. For one they are too high because they cost too much to make. I was union for 25 years but I can still see where the unions are sometimes their own worst enemy.

My mom worked at G.E. and my dad retired from there after 31 years. Years ago, my wife worked there on the midnight shift. The maintenance crew on midnights were making $25 dollars an hour. That was more than 15 years ago.

What really bothered my wife was the fact this maintenance crew LITERALLY played cards the entire shift!!! Because of the union, the company was helpless to do anything about it. She told me of a new employee who was a very hard worker... until she had completed her 90 days and was put into the union. After that, it was routine for her to clock in and stick around a couple hours, then leave for 3 or 4 hours then return to work having been clocked in the entire time. The union there had such a strangle-hold on the company, there was literally NO punitive actions allowed against those employees. It was a completely different place than my folks had worked.

After my wife had been there about 7 years, the company loaded the entire plant (machinery, materials, office goods... everything!) onto a train and hauled it down to Ranosa, Mexico! Everyone lost their jobs and the Mexican labor force was glad for the work... which I think paid about $1 an hour.

I read somewhere that 30 years ago GM employed 680,000 people. Today it's more like 65,000. This is sad. I don't particularly blame the union, but their power to control from the bottom certainly didn't help. Obviously management had issues themselves. Huge corporate bonuses, bad design and shoddy materials. It was a trainwreck that took 25 years to happen because no one seemed willing to make any meaningful concessions to prevent it. Everyone was more than willing, however, to bleed the company dry.

Sad, sad loss for Americans.

Tali

Wow, Tali, I'm speechless....couldn't have said it better myself!

My grandfather was a coalminer as most of your know.The union helped them because they were dying like flies of black lung and other dust diseases and the coal companies owned the town including the company store that my grandparents were held hostage by.
On the other hand I also have relatives and one ex that worked at GM.Fairfax.My mother was a union stewart for Teamsters local #41.The unions have changed because they forgot the important things like fighting for those overworked and treated badly by the company.I know for a fact they have helped people found having sex in the plant.Thats an extreme situation,but its not what their job was in the beginning.Unions now have extreme power and money they have gotten from the working man.To me they resemble the coal companies.Greedy.
Tali-Right on.

HOOOBOY,

I support the unions because my brother belongs to one. He's an airplant mechanic at American Airlines. The thing is, their union isn't that strong because they have had things like holidays and retirement taken away. This was done 2 to 3 years ago before the economy got so bad.

This is what I remember-My mom worked with him to get the union in.Roy Williams
In 1935 Williams began his career by trucking livestock, and he later became active in the leadership of the Teamsters’ Local 41 in Kansas City, Mo. As a union executive, he gained a reputation as a forceful bargainer with notable expertise in trucking contracts. His rise to power was aided by onetime Teamsters president James R. Hoffa, and in spite of a pending indictment on charges involving union misdeeds and reported links to organized crime, Williams was elected president of the Teamsters in 1981.

During his imprisonment, Williams testified as a government witness in criminal court cases; in 1987 he disclosed that he had been controlled by Nick Civella, who was identified at the trial as a Mafia boss in Kansas City. As a result of his testimony, the ailing Williams was released from prison eight years early.
Now I'm not saying all union people are bad,I'm just saying things have changed over the years.

Clouddancer, I understand where you are coming from. I think the point that some are trying to make is that SOME unions become too powerful and in the end they take everyone down instead of just a few. I would be willing to take a paycut if that means that no one would get layed off. However, the union stand is give me more or don't taking ANYTHING away. During the tough times, you will have to give up a little. You may eventually get it back, but it requires sacrifice initially.

I would agree that nurses are way underpaid. Heck I didn't think it was right that my doctor got paid when I had my son because she wasn't even there for the delivery. I thought the nurse that delivered the baby should be paid instead.

I think there are different types of unions. For example, teachers and doctors cannot go on strike. Therefore, I think that the "power" given to these types of unions is totally different than say the UAW. What I don't understand is a union that is so strong and FIGHTS to keep employees that don't even show up to work or coming to work under the influence of drugs and alcohol. Where I grew up, there are no unions to "protect" people like this. Wouldn't you agree that as a nurse, if you showed up to work only when you felt like it, you probably wouldn't have a job to show up to?

I think TNT was trying to focus more on waste and not so much on unions. For example, at our plant, I have given tours to a variety of different groups. Let me tell you, it is totally embarrassing when I always get asked, "Why did we see some guys sleeping. Are they getting paid to do that?" If there is time to sleep on the job, I think there is some waste that could be gotten rid of. I know if I was sleeping on the job, I'd be fired instantly!

By the way Cloudy, I admire you for having been a nurse so long and sticking through it!

Hello Everyone,
I know I haven't been on here in a long time, but I just have to comment on this thread. TnT seems to be the only one looking at this matter in a logical, methodical, fact-based way rather than emotional ramblings or spewing irrelevent information.

Cheers to you, TnT!

The fact remains that the Fire Department seems to be overstaffed by two. I recall Chief Lane stating in a council meeting that crews of 4 are enough to run the department safely. Fire Fighters are a matter of public safety for sure, but my tax dollars are not for the purpose of employing people just for the sake of creating (or supporting un-needed) jobs.

All areas are being affected by the economic downturn...including all of the other cities around us. Why do you suppose the city of Edwardsville should operate anything less than the most efficient way?

As for the matter of bringing City Hall up to existing codes (including ADA compliant) and modern effiecient energy usage standards, since it hasn't been altered (for the most part) since the 1970's...what is the problem? The city seems to be planning for the future and those things don't happen overnight.

The firefighter position that seems to be the subject of this thread and that protest is a direct result of the only department in the city that had no other cost cutting options since they already spent their years allotment of budget except for salaries. Ther other departments already made cost-cutting strides. This was instigated by a shortfall of tax revenue for this (2009) year!

It's about time you found the Post Reply button. Now keep using it and look for the New Topic button as well.

Spewing irrelevent information? Emotional ramblings???

I didn't see it that way at all Whoville. I mean, it's not like this is a board meeting. We were having a conversation, that's all.

Talimook

I would be interested in how the problem was resolved. What cost cutting measures did the fire department agree to if indeed there was nothing else they could cut ? Or is another department cutting more than their share so that the fire department doesn't have to ?